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No Limit/Pot Limit Strategy Discussion: A Pair with a flush draw on the flop - Overrated???

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    Hello

    I have been playing no limit holdem ring games for a while now. I had a question on "A pair with a flush draw on the flop". I know that i have atleast 12 to 13 outs on the flop even going againt an overpair or a 2 pair on the flop. I have been pushing allin purely based on my outs and been successful in hitting my 2 pair or trips or the flush most of the times but i have been called a donkey for doing so. is this a good strategy or a bad play on my

    part. should i be correcting my game on this one? thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks

    Sam

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      CommentAuthorsixandfour
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2008
     

    When I am in this situation, I like to know exactly what my outs are and aren't before I go stacking off... In a shorter stack situation, my general rule of thumb is to have one or the other (pair or draw) be solid. so if I don't have the nut flush draw, I'd better have top pair, and if I have the nut draw, a weaker pair will work. That way I know my 11 -14 outs are likely all there.

    In a deepstack situation, you have more freedom to explore your situation, and more importantly, can often get to draw without crippling yourself for it. For instance, say you're in position against your villain, and you flop your pair and draw. Your opponent fires away. My play here is a reraise of 2-2.5x his flop raise. By doing this, I find out exactly what I'm up against, and if I can draw for less. If villain has trips or 2 good pair, he/she will reraise me, and I know I'm basically going to have to pay dearly to draw, and may have to contend with a boat or quads if the board pairs. Also, I know that my two pair and trip outs may not be good. If on the other hand, villain only has top pair (or worse), he/she will just call, and likely check the turn, fearful of two pair or a set. That gets you to the river at a minimum price, knowing you have two pair and trip outs as well as your draw.

    Out of position, you definitely want to lead out here. If you're up against air, you win right there. If, on the other hand, your opponent has a big hand, he'll come firing back, and you will have to decide how to continue. If it's affordable, a 3bet here will often accomplish the same as a reraise in position. If not, then you may want to evaluate how far you want to go in the hand. If opponent flat calls with a midrange pair, you're probably gonna check/check the turn anyway.

    Hope that helps a bit.

  3. 728x890_us
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      CommentAuthorrldcakqj10
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2008
     

    Happy New Years deuce! First off who cares what other people call you. Don't let it bother you, get $$$! Pushing All in on a Flush draw??? Hmmm??? The situation and odds that you have given are a little vague to me. When you speak of having a pair is it top pair good kicker (A or K) or is it any pair middle or bottom? Your draw is it the "Nut" flush draw? With 2 over cards and a flush draw on the flop you've got 15 outs & your a little less than 60% to hit your flush on the river. With only 1 over card (hopefully its an Ace & and you are going for the nut flush) your outs become 12 like you stated earlier and your %age becomes Less than 48% to hit by the river. Looking at these percentages I see nothing wrong with pushing all in when in CERTAIN situations but as Uncle_Buz stated, I would probably ONLY do this with a short stack during a "Ring Game". Something like 3 to 5 times the BB with or without the nut flush draw, but if my stack was DEEP ( say 20+ the BB) like in most ring games I wouldn't risk my whole stack (buy in) in those types of situations very often. I would ONLY consider it with 2 suited over cards such as KQ or KJ if the Ace of that suite hit the board or Ace any suited w/ 2 suited cards on the board. But in my opinion pushing all in with a DEEP stack against other DEEP stacked players very often just because you hold a pair and a flush draw is not a high percentage play. The fact that you have a pair and a flush draw wouldn' t justify putting your whole stack @ risk every time you are put in this situation because the %age of your pair holding up or you hitting the (Winning) flush will be much less than the actual %age of the time your flush hits.

    If you use this approach very often you MUST vary your play by slow playing the "Nuts" or pushing with the "Nuts" when you hit on the flop or turn (As stated by Uncle_Buz earlier). If your opponents are watching they will be putting you on a draw not a made hand and they will be the ones racing, playing catch up when they call! This will keep your opponents guessing and allow you to make more $$$ with your made hands. I hope this is helpful to you.

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    Pair + flush draw type hands are great because most of the time you have about 50% equity in the hand against nearly all other hands. however this is only true when the board is two flushed and you hold two suited cards or when it's three flushed and you hold the nut or 2nd nut draw. Holding top pair w/ a medium sized card for the flush on a 3 flush flop is terrible and should be played extremely cautiously if at all. You just don't know what you're trying to hit. If you like pushing that a lot maybe you should stick to blackjack.

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      CommentAuthorrldcakqj10
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2008
     

    Ha Ha Ha, I like how CT79 posted on someone elses post. I like him hes a hustler. Slick man!

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      CommentAuthorCT79
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
     

    I made the following play a while back and was called an idiot. He was probably right. I shouldn't have even played the cards to begin with seeing as he raised pre-flop. Maybe I felt he was trying to steal from the button. Anyway, the reason I called his All-in was because I had already committed a few dollars to the pot. I really shouldn't have let it get this far to begin with

    , $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players

    MP1: $5.10

    MP2: $2.65

    CO: $3.65

    BTN: $16.65

    SB: $9.40

    Hero (BB): $7.80

    UTG: $2.55

    UTG+1: $9.80

    Pre-Flop: K 6 dealt to Hero (BB)

    5 folds, BTN raises to $0.30, SB folds, Hero calls $0.20

    Flop: ($0.65) K 7 J (2 Players)

    Hero bets $0.30, BTN raises to $1, Hero raises to $2, BTN raises to $16.35 and is All-In, Hero calls $5.50 and is All-In

    Turn: ($15.65) 6 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

    River: ($15.65) 2 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

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      CommentAuthorUncle_Buz
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
     

    As always, the answer is, "It depends."

    If you are on a short stack, pushing is a fine play because you would be getting reasonable odds on your money. Most strategy discussions, however, deal with big stack .

    If you have 12 or 13 outs, you are likely a dog to any hand that would call a $100 bet into a $10 pot. I really think that most good players would rather play the hand out than flip coins with you for $100.

    Deep stacked, I think you would have more fun betting out about half the pot and seeing what your opponent does with it. Will he raise you trying to protect his top pair? Will he call with a bigger draw than yours - or better yet, with a worse one? Will he just fold because he completely missed the flop?

    If you insist on shoving when on a draw, then also make sure to overbet the pot when you happen to flop the nuts. They'll never believe you.

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      CommentAuthorHuJwang
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2008
     

    That was definitely a bad play. Fold that garbage hand preflop, out of position, and then fold on the flop with your nearly worthless flush draw. You're probably not ahead now, and the guy could easily have AK with the ace of spades, or KQ with Qs, to have you totally crushed.

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  1.  

A Pair with a flush draw on the flop - Overrated???