No Limit/Pot Limit Strategy Discussion: KK Preflop - Fold or All in?

Bean, if an ace hits the flop then KK loses to ace rag. I base my plays on position, if i'm out of position I bet out, certinly if the other person is holding QQ will call or fold. If they have an ace they raise and I call / fold if I miss the turn.

The object of a cash game is to well win money, why risk all of your money on one hand when you have a chance of losing, its just a bad play in my eyes, since I play mainly B&M NL cash games.

And in the orginal post, the opponent has ACE KING an ace hits then KK shrivels up to a one outer simple as that. But if you just call and a King hits the flop then you are gonna still get the all in from the opponent.

I will almost always call in this situation. With an all in, your KK probably is out front. But if you take the flop, your KK is still the favorite. If an ace comes, you can curse the poker gods, fold, but know that you lost only a third of your stack to a potentially devastating beat. More than likely, the ace won't hit. Of course, you can still be behind to someone flopping trips, a straight, or whatever. And don't forget he could still have those aces. Tread lightly, but test the waters, get a read, and make your decesion. There's a good chance you'll be able to tell if he hit this flop. Chances are, you'll like the flop. If it's undercards, his QQ will still look good to him. Truth is, he's invested in this pot and will probably look to defend his raise. So yeah, you're a favorite all-in, but seeing the flop will save you money on bad beats, but also put you in a strong position to exploit the inexperience or greed of some fishes.

And remember sharks, a hand isn't a hand until it has five cards. 8)

--Badfish out.

I want to better explain the strategy of getting all your money in with pocket Kings.

Pocket Kings is probably the hardest hand to play. Why? You have great potential to lose a big pot, and little potential to win a big pot.

Here is an example. Let's say the flop is J-7-2 rainbow. You gotta think you have the best hand. However, if an opponent is willing to put money in the pot with you, what could they have? A-J? Possibly, but I doubt it. They probably turned trips on you. But are you going to lay down kings with a flop like that? It's highly unlikely. So you're going to end up losing a big pot. But if no one caught a piece of that flop, they're going to fold, and you'll only win a small pot.

What kind of flops are good when you're holding kings? In other words, what flops could come out that would look good to a player you have dominated but don't scare you? If an ace comes out, you're screwed whether your opponent has an ace or not. If he has an ace, he's ahead now. If he doesn't have an ace, he's probably not going to put more money in the pot. If he does, he either bluffed you out of a pot or made something that can beat aces. If a king comes out, that's good for you, but the only way you'll probably make money is if your opponent has A-K.

So, after the flop comes out, you will most likely lose a big pot or win a small one. So, if you can get someone to put all their money in before the flop, you stand the best chance of doing what you're supposed to do: make as much money as you can. If you can get it all in pre-flop, you let the odds take over and prevent yourself from folding the best hand. Someone says this takes the skill out of it, but I would say skill is getting someone to put all their money i the pot when you have the best hand. You have outplayed them by getting them to do this and by eliminating their possiblility of outplaying you.

I'm the shortest stack at the table (just rebuilt after getting rivered) but not really shortacked (M>10).

Midway through a tournament, not ITM yet. I get pocket Kings on the button. An early position shorterstack (covers me, but not by much). Folded to a midposition bigstack (covers EP x5) who calls, but doesn't go over the top. This rings alarm bells to me. Folded to me. I'm not feeling good about this, but I cannot see how I can not call with KK. I don't believe either has AA, but I think EP probably has mid pockets and MP A-rag suited, or A-paint (offsuit). I press the call button, with a feeling that the mid pockets will hit their set and I'll be toast.

I was almost right - EP had A9 suited, and MP 99. When I saw those two I felt better for a moment, knowing there was only one more 9 in the deck, so chances of it striking were low. However that brief relief quickly faded as an Ace hit the flop. Turn and river blanked, game over.

---------

I still believe that I did the right thing. Entering the hands into Pokerstove, it yields KK 61% : A9s 23% : 99 10% so I was definately the favourite for a trippleup.

If my opponents had been more what I had suspected, then the odd would have been KK 53½% : A5s 28% : 77 18%, or

KK 56½% : AQ 24% : 77 19%

If the other guy has aces then you're dead to a 2 outer. Even if you are a favorite against an AK you still have to worry about an ace flopping. I'm not saying that you shouldn't push preflop, but all in with KK in a cash game is reckless and not a play you should be doing. In a tournament situation players have to gather all the chips in other to win, but in a cash game you have to think about the chips you have so you don't have to hit the dreaded reload button.

chud this isn't a push of fold situation, this is HU. KK in cash game is an extremly profitable hand and with the raise - reraise - 2nd reraise really doubtful that someone is playing Ace rag, A10 - AK maybe.

But in this case the poster had the dominate hand and won, thats the good thing. But IMO preflop all ins in a cash game can be costly especially if the other person has you covered or just about the same amount of chips as you do. Poker is about making correct decisions and people have to remembe that KK is a good hand but can still lose.

People talk about folding Kings, but they never do it. The only thing that matters is winning. Winning the pot makes your decision correct, losing makes it incorrect. Poker is all luck anyway.

If he flops, turns, or rivers an Ace on you, then you should have just called the re-raise. You went all-in with a hand that was a statistical favorite against every hand but one. You did the right thing.

Wow, did u read my post? I pointed out that your way was just fine which I believe means that I wasn't arguing. I apologize for having my own opinion and also for not playing poker the exact same way u do.

Who said anything bout folding preflop, the arguement was about should the orin. poster go all in or smooth call preflop.

Do I dont have to pay to reload on the internet?

Nice job!Last edited by Travis2k6 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

Well I think it was a good, aggressive move to go all-in pre flop with your KK's. It is hard to win pots when you get scared when you are re-raised even though you have pocket KK's. As I was reading I was putting him on AK suited so I would have definitely called. I never fold KK's pre flop...maybe after the flop...but never before. It would have been easier to guess what he had, had he been easier to read but as you said, he wasn't so good play!

3 times on here I have ran into Aces pre-flop with Kings, but have also won my fair share with Kings...But I do not regret the pushes at all. It's a dominating hand and folding it pre-flop is either because you are 3rd in a 45 SNG and want to get rid of the short-stack so you can get a higher pay-day...Which, IMO is the dumbest thing...And I have seen it done, just so people can get more money, i'm all about getting more chips...Never lay down Kings pre-flop.

lol some1 actually folded kings pre flop in the wsop championship. i think they raised to about 2000 some1 then pushed all in, he showed his kings and folded to every1s surprise, but then the other guy let him know he made a world class lay down showin the aces

I don't see this as a bad play at all. If the point is to make money, you could look at every decision where you were greater than 70% to win when the money went all in and smile ear to ear.

The opponent could have a lot of hands besides AA that he would re-raise with. Of those hands, he could have a lot of hands that would call your subsequent all-in as well--only one of them being AA. Based on that alone this is a long term winning decision because you are far ahead of every one of those except AA.

I don't think its terribly incorrect to flat call a re-raise because if the A doesn't flop then a lot of the time you cut his chances on the flop if you push all in and he calls. But... against an opponent that you don't have a very good read on it will be tough to call some all in flop bets on a myriad of boards. If I were to flat call this I would want it to be against an opponent that I have a solid read on, not an unknown.

In any case, the one time your opponent flips over AA in that situation is paid for by the times he flips over anything else, namely 10s, JJ, QQ & AK combos. Its the second best hand in hold'em for a reason, it tends to win. Just my 2 cents

I dont understand why some of you wouldnt re-raise with KK in middle position after a 3.5X BB raise. If KK calls this raise, there's approx. 4-5 other players that can get into the hand. KK is not a hand you want to play multi-way, so you have to re-raise in this position. I think a re-raise of 17-22 is a good amount in this situation as it does get the Ace/Rag players out of the hand ...unless theyre maniacs. This also applies pressure on the original raiser, whether he really feels his hand is strong. Unfortunately, the original raiser re-raised him an EXTREMELY LARGE amount of chips after his reraise. So now, it boils down to whether the original raiser has AA, A/K, or QQ, or is a donk and loves his A5suited. Also, now that the original raiser pushed soooo much chips, its either fold or go all-in...no need to play the flop/turn/river vs. this kind of opponet, he is willing to gamble and so why not push all-in? Its extremeley difficult to drop KK in this situation, i think it was the right move.

If poker was all luck... You could sit down at the big tables and Play with Andy Bloch, Gus Hansen, Phil Ivey, Mike Matusow, Chip Reese and after 100,000 hands you would all be about even (no rake in this scenarion)

BS Im ready to bet $10,000 for a WSOP ticket that you would finish last... not due to luck but due to pure skills!

my advice was intended for the OP and although I don't know if your comment was directed at me, I in no way intended to advise -you- to change up your strats.

peace bro

I did this with KK yesterday.

First hand of a $100 tourney (all players have 1500)

Pre-flop I raise 8x bb (160)

5 players fold one re-reraises pot (440)

I think a minute... does he have AA? I call, hoping to see a King on the flop. Flop is 2S 5S 8D

I check, he moves all-in, I call.

He had 52, caught 2 pair on the flop, won the hand ( I stayed to watch him lose... he placed 2nd and won $210.)

After the hand I think, how did this guy beat me?

He beat me because I let him think I was weak by just calling his re-raise. Had I put him all-in I bet he would have folded his 52.

If someones going to get lucky like that let them win it all-in pre-flop.

You won and that's great, but the result isn't what matters, it's the decision that you are questioning. From what I get from your original post, you put him on AA and pushed anyway crossing your fingers and hoping. That makes it a bad decision. You also said he was pot committed so your push did not even have folding equity to chase out a hand that may outdraw you. Even if he saw your cards, he made the right call given the pot odds that he got on his money.

Hmm, I think this is a situation where you have to look at the limit you are playing. At higher levels, I think this is a -EV move because in every situation you lose by pushing instead of calling and trapping on flop.

1. If you have him dominated, lets say he has JJ QQ something like this, then the flop comes 2 4 8, you called the reraise and there is no way for him to think his hand isnt good. You can either bet out small to induce a reraise, or check to check raise him, either way you are gaining extra value out of your hand.

2. If he is dominating you or a scary flop comes, you can discard your hand for cheap instead of getting involved. There is no rule that you have to end up all in every time you have KK or AA. I fold them often esp if the board is like 8 9 10 of hearts. That hand is done right there and its ok if he just has QQ and you fold. Not a big deal for only 66 dollars instead of ur whole stack.

That being said, I agree with the push here.

1. Its lower levels, so people could really be doing anything at all. The hand range people are willing to go all in on is much higher (I have 44, what if he has AK?? im ahead! i call...)

2. A big reason you don't push in higher levels is because people can fold QQ or AK preflop. The hands you are really dominating wont call you and the hand(s) that hurt you will. Its a lose lose situation. If they are willing to call you with AK, QQ, JJ, AA, or even smaller pairs, the benefit of pushing increases dramatically. If a guy could have 5 hands, and im beating 4 of them and he wants to put all his money in, im gonna go ahead and do it. This same mentality applies to short stacks up higher, they are looking to double up and leave they dont have time to wait for AA they will be blinded down.

The goal of poker is to get your money in as a favorite. It's that simple. So if they wanna put all their money in as a dog preflop every time, there is no reason to get cute or fancy. Don't try to outplay an idiot, it doesn't work. If he is gonna call preflop with AK like many will at 1/2, then they are gonna lose alot of money to you when you have KK over the long run. I like the push for now tho as you move up you may want to look into a call on the rereraise then outplay him on the flop or throw it away like i said earlier. Good play at this level tho.

it's probably not a big deal either way at a cash game, I mean AA is the only hand you don't want to go against preflop, you have good EV against all other hands, and you probably will maximize profit going all in with KK. It does depend on your read on your opponent still but going all in preflop is hardly a bad thing to do in a cash game. I see where you are coming from

One thing that I didn't see the original poster consider, nor did I catch it in my overview of the thread is considering the other player having kk as well.

We know through the hh for that not to be the case, but if your opponent is pushing with it, you might be good to do the same.

wow, again i'm late to the posting party, nice reply Beantown (I agree obviously)--I always get interrupted posting at work.

I can see your point dmoore but it seems like it is too much of risk to me for a cash game.