No Limit/Pot Limit Strategy Discussion: Serious donk alert

I wanna try my hand at this analysis game. I'm very much a novice and really just want to see what you think of how I saw this... (to help my game)... please don't beat me up!

First off, I see a different scenario than most of you do. I see someone calling down an ace after he decides he's got the better of it at the flop. I don't think alot of thought went into it, just something along the lines of...

"I've got AQ and I think I'm winning at the flop."

Full Tilt Poker Game #3965301215: $2 + $0.25 Sit & Go (30158935), Table 1 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:14:59 ET - 2007/10/25

Seat 1: Nomad02 (845)

Seat 2: Fedor Emilianko (895)

Seat 4: Rockets79 (2,275) <----- he's second high at the table.

Seat 5: chenman4ev (3,195)

Seat 6: Cdub369 (1,320)

Seat 7: SV AcuDoc (1,730)

Seat 8: XCloud (1,450)

Seat 9: turboslash (1,790)

chenman4ev posts the small blind of 25

Cdub369 posts the big blind of 50

The button is in seat #4

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to XCloud [Ad Jh]

SV AcuDoc folds

XCloud raises to 250

turboslash folds

Nomad02 folds

Fedor Emilianko folds

Rockets79 calls 250 <---- he's not reading you, merely calling with a good hand. He probably could have raised to see how good your hand was but he didn't so he's either trying to slow play or more likely just lazily hitting the call button with a good hand. I know MANY players who play "just to see the flop".

chenman4ev folds

Cdub369 calls 200

*** FLOP *** [Kh 5s 9d]

turboslash is sitting out

Cdub369 checks

XCloud bets 200

Rockets79 calls 200 <----- here, he's decided that his AQ is good. You don't have a K and his hand, in his mind is a winner. At least, good enough to call it off. I'm guessing not a lot of thought went into it, he just "felt" it was worth calling at this point. Remember, this is still only a total of 450 out of his second best chip count. He probably calls just about any bet short of "All in".

Cdub369 folds

*** TURN *** [Kh 5s 9d] [Ts]

XCloud has 15 seconds left to act

XCloud bets 400

Rockets79 calls 400 <----- he has already decided that he has won and the T doesn't change his mind in the least. He assumes you don't have a pair, and to him his A is good. His total commitment is 850 from 2275.

He is showing 1825 in his stack, 400 at this point is nothing compared to the pot of 1475 (did I add that up right?) Anyway, at this point it doesn't matter to him if you made your hand or not. It's too cheap not to call and he's already convinced himself that he's going to win. I'm going to guess that he called these bets quickly.

*** RIVER *** [Kh 5s 9d Ts] [Js]

XCloud bets 600, and is all in

turboslash has returned

Rockets79 has 15 seconds left to act

Rockets79 calls 600 <---- he woke up with a straight, whatdaya know? In his mind he has made the greatest play of all night. He lazily called off his Ace and donked himself a straight. No way he's not calling. I wouldn't be surprised if he called WITHOUT making the straight.

turboslash is sitting out

*** SHOW DOWN ***

XCloud shows [Ad Jh] a pair of Jacks

turboslash has returned

Rockets79 shows [Qc Ah] a straight, Ace high

Rockets79 wins the pot (3,175) with a straight, Ace high

XCloud stands up

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot 3,175 | Rake 0

Board: [Kh 5s 9d Ts Js]

Seat 1: Nomad02 didn't bet (folded)

Seat 2: Fedor Emilianko didn't bet (folded)

Seat 4: Rockets79 (button) showed [Qc Ah] and won (3,175) with a straight, Ace high

Seat 5: chenman4ev (small blind) folded before the Flop

Seat 6: Cdub369 (big blind) folded on the Flop

Seat 7: SV AcuDoc didn't bet (folded)

Seat 8: XCloud showed [Ad Jh] and lost with a pair of Jacks

Seat 9: turboslash didn't bet (folded)

Bottom line: At this level you are going to find players who are not analyzing each and every hand and are only playing their own hands. They see their hand as "good" so they play it. The bet amounts were not enough to force him to stop and think about things. Maybe they were the "right" size based on the blinds and such, but other factors are at play. Sometimes you have to bet more in order to get someone off of a hand and other times it doesn't matter what you bet they aren't gonna fold no matter what.

If it were me, and keeping in mind that this is a low level table, price almost not mattering at all the 250 pre-flop bet is good, but the flop bet was way too low. Either check it or bet it strong. If you check there, he's checking. If he bets you fold and you go on to the next hand. If he checks then you are still both clueless to what the other guy has and you might have a better chance of making a pot sized bet on the turn to make him think you actually DID hit that K. If you bet strong he may fold, thinking you hit that K... but strong is relative. It has to take into consideration his chipstack and his play style. Pot sized is good, but still might not be enough. At this point it may be all in or nothing.

Stop bluffing so much.

Seeing it makes my decision that it's a easy call much easier, though..

Even though it looks like a bad play by XCloud, it is tough to actually make those calls.. You have to be sure of it, but this is why you should've bet more on flop and turn.. makes it more expensive for him no matter what his reason was for calling the hand down.

If he realized the bad bets from the beginning and that's why he decided to call it down, then it was basically a good play. (I could just be saying this because it worked out, though, lol)

I'd have to see another similar situation where it didn't work out to be sure.

After thinking about it and reading some other's posts, here are my conclusions:

1.) Cloud, I don't mind the idea of bluffing there, but the amounts need to be higher to represent a big hand.

2.) I don't believe his opponent was that good to call with A-Q. I think he's just another player who can't get away from a hand like A-K, A-Q, or A-J.

3.) What draw is he going for on the flop? He only has backdoor draws, and really has no reason to call. He picks up a weak draw on the turn. Still makes no sense to me. Again, unless he has an incredible read (which I doubt), I'm still not fond of his opponent's play.

Really? Isn't it possible that his opponent saw him make similar bets with nothing?

Yea, this is what I first thought.. Those very weak bets just say that he's bluffing or has a weak hand. A good thing to do would to raise on either the flop or turn because there's not much hands that the AQ can beat, so his weak bets could easily mean that he has a hand, but not a very good one.. But then you can also just call like his opponent did because if he does just have a really weak hand, you have an A, Q, or J that could probably help you win the pot and to call is just a weak 200 bet and then a weak 400 bet for 600 total.

The 200 flop bet was just so weak and if you just call it might get you in trouble later on in the hand because he can catch something and suck out and it is just hard to make a decision to fold, call, or raise on the turn. (if you do have him beat).

Way opponent should've played the hand IMO:

I've made up my mind and think a fold or raise on the flop would be the best thing to do, a nice raise being better because you can win the pot right there (which would seem likely after seeing a weak 200 bet).

If calling pre-flop (which, after thinking it over, I REALLY don't think your opponent should've done), then call on the turn after seeing yet another weak bet.. Idk here though, a fold would then possibly be best since you will probably have to call on the river again, too.

(Now a raise probably wouldn't mean much)

Again, though, he might have not thought about the weak bets and just called the flop and turn because he's a fish..

So, calling down with A-Q high and no draws on the flop or an inside straight draw on the turn is good play? Please let me know how that is. If blinds are at 25-50, I'm doubting he has that much of a read.

Guess what people, sometimes all you need is Ace high, and it's not donkish to call with it. It always depends on your read, your position and the board texture.

At the forum table the other night I called with AJ in position. The flop came 10 high rainbow, and I called a weak bet with my two overcards. the turn was an inocuous card, and my opponent checked. I checked behind. The river paired the board, and my opponent fired away.

My assessment was he missed everything. His check on the turn told me he had nothing worth protecting. The 9 on the river didn't help and I instacalled.

My AJ bet his 68.

Umm, in case you didn't read the HH, XCloud bet the whole way. I'm sorry but I'm still not giving his opponent credit for a read. I don't see many people at the $2 level with that good of a read. But as I mentioned earlier, his opponent needs to raise or fold pre-flop. The difference between this and Craig was that Cloud bet every street. The check on the turn for Craig confirmed his suspicion that his hand was best. Cloud bet the turn, trying to convice his opponent that he had a hand. The only problem was the bet amounts, but besides that, I don't see how Cloud played it bad.

They are both reasonable calls, considering your weak bets. Both your bets were less than 1/2 pot. How do you expect to chase them away with that? You did nothing to show real strength, and gave him no reason to believe that you actually had a hand.

Now let me ask you this: he called your bet on the flop and the turn. What kind of a hand did you put him on? You kept betting weak and he kept calling like he had a hand. Why did you keep making these weak bets when you had nothing, and he could've had damn near anything?

A word of advice, something I've learned long ago: when you're playing low level tourneys, don't make these bluffs designed to look like you have a hand and your bet is screaming 'call me'. You will get called almost every time.

I still lean towards this guy being a fish. The opponent's call on the flop is the worst play there. He either needs to raise or fold, but call is awful.

Wow, what a bunch of fishes here. Some of you guys are telling me you should keep calling big chunks of your stack out to chase cards. I was playing it off like I had something, knowing I had nothing. He kept calling, knowing he had nothing.

Does it matter who played the worst? He played losing poker.

Worse, he can't see it, nor does he listen to people when they tell him.

Actually, I don't think calling there is such a bad play, if you're calling with the intent of making a play on the turn. If you call here and your opponent checks or makes another weak raise on the turn, it's a good spot to push. Instead he just called the turn. If you don't think your opponent has a king (which his bets don't really indicate he does), a call is also reasonable since you have 10 outs, if you even need any.

Although I agree the opponents' play was far from the best, I don't see it as 'donk' play either.

Are you saying I do not know how to play poker or just that I don't listen to them?

I admit it was a very foolish play on my part, but is being "pot committed" an excuse enough to keep calling? What would you have done, had you been in the other guy's position? Quote Obi-Wan, "Who's more foolish? The fool? Or the fool who follows him?"

Raising 5xBB PF screams "I am a Donk".

Your continuation bet was weak.

After such a weak CB bet I would probably have popped you with AQ.

You both played the hand really really bad. If it makes you feel better to focus on his bad play than your own, go right ahead. Although you don't have much hope of becoming a better player that way.

Probably best way to answer.. Short, simple, and basically 100% true.

I still think that the other guy could've played it very well because of above reasons that I made, but it's still tough to make the call for that better reason... And if it was a call just for the draw, then just terrible by both, not sure which is worse, just both terrible.

wow that a horrible move on your part dude, just be glad this was only a $2 s n g. if i were u i would go to a barnes n nobles, read a book and not play any real money till u know how play hold em...dont bluff like that jeez u both were chasing for nothing, and u got what u deserved u should actually pull all your money out of full tilt and go to a beginner poker place like Party Poker or something where they teach you to play, i love to play people like you thats how i get alot of money real quick on s n g and ring games cuz u people are just calling stations, but plz for ur sake read a book or learn in someway or pull your money out before u go broke on hands like this

I didn't see the bets post-flop the first time, but that being said, please justify his opponent's calling with A-Q there. Even if his opponent put him on any type of pair (pockets or on flop) there is no reason for him to call here. The only way he calls is if he knows for sure Cloud has a weaker ace. A bet to 250 does not always indicate A-K, A-J, A-10, or any A-x. This could easily be a pair. I still do not like his opponent's play at any point except the river here. If you want to criticize clouds's play here, that's fine. It certainly wasn't the best, but again, Cloud is the one leading out here, and his opponent is the one calling down with nothing. Am I missing something? I'll stick by my stance that his opponent's play was much much worse than Cloud.

But he knew he had you beat.. (doesn't matter how good his hand is, just how much worse yours is in this hand) (the weak way you played your hand should probably tell him that he has you beat which it seems like he realized it)

You bet 250..5x bb pre-flop, then only bet 200 on flop and only 400 on turn. Then on the river when the guy has a really good made hand, you then decide to bet all in.. that total 600 more could've helped on your flop and turn decisions instead of pushing it in when you become way behind and impossible to bluff.

Or you could've slowed down and not tried to bluff on every street...

One of these would've been MUCH better than playing a weak, terrible bluff the way you did. Donk.

There's not a lot of players at the $2 sit n gos that are going to notice or really care about your table image. The best way to win at that limit is to play tight and wait for hands in the beginning and when the blinds get high try to pick up blinds when you're in position. The hand you posted is an example that if you flop a big hand, there are plenty of players in that game that are going to pay you off with ace high.