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Multi-Table Tournament Poker: Overbetting the pot?

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    Hand I recently played that well quite peed me off. I once heard that overbetting the pot was not recommended but was there anyway I could have pushed this lady off her draw...

    Game #4323970343: $3 + $0.30 Tournament (32718819), Table 29 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:11:49 ET - 2007/11/28

    Seat 1: flecker_6 (3,810)

    Seat 2: zzhook (4,670)

    Seat 3: Katstr00dl3 (4,610)

    Seat 4: genewal (2,850)

    Seat 5: Gran Can Clan (2,765)

    Seat 6: ADZCARDZ (2,250)

    Seat 7: RAMZES_IV (580)

    Seat 8: prinzboldi (2,470)

    Seat 9: matto32 (2,185)

    RAMZES_IV posts the small blind of 50

    prinzboldi posts the big blind of 100

    The button is in seat #6

    *** HOLE CARDS ***

    Dealt to Gran Can Clan [9d Js]

    matto32 folds

    flecker_6 folds

    zzhook folds

    Katstr00dl3 calls 100

    genewal folds

    Gran Can Clan calls 100

    ADZCARDZ folds

    RAMZES_IV folds

    prinzboldi checks

    *** FLOP *** [5h Th Jd]

    prinzboldi checks

    Katstr00dl3 checks

    Gran Can Clan bets 350

    prinzboldi has 15 seconds left to act

    prinzboldi folds

    Katstr00dl3 calls 350

    *** TURN *** [5h Th Jd] [8d]

    Katstr00dl3 checks

    Gran Can Clan bets 700

    Katstr00dl3 has 15 seconds left to act

    Katstr00dl3 calls 700

    *** RIVER *** [5h Th Jd 8d] [Ac]

    Katstr00dl3 checks

    Gran Can Clan checks

    *** SHOW DOWN ***

    Gran Can Clan shows [9d Js] a pair of Jacks

    Katstr00dl3 shows [Kh Qc] a straight, Ace high

    Katstr00dl3 wins the pot (2,450) with a straight, Ace high

    *** SUMMARY ***

    Total pot 2,450 | Rake 0

    Board: [5h Th Jd 8d Ac]

    Seat 1: flecker_6 didn't bet (folded)

    Seat 2: zzhook didn't bet (folded)

    Seat 3: Katstr00dl3 showed [Kh Qc] and won (2,450) with a straight, Ace high

    Seat 4: genewal didn't bet (folded)

    Seat 5: Gran Can Clan showed [9d Js] and lost with a pair of Jacks

    Seat 6: ADZCARDZ (button) didn't bet (folded)

    Seat 7: RAMZES_IV (small blind) folded before the Flop

    Seat 8: prinzboldi (big blind) folded on the Flop

    Seat 9: matto32 didn't bet (folded)

    With around 11 outs and around a 22% chance of hitting on the river, was her call on the turn correct, even if she estimated her outs to be 14.

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    You were going fine until this comment then I started laughing so hard I couldn't finish reading and forced myself to forget anything you posted. Overbetting takes away odds in every sense of the word. The implied odds are lower because there's less in the stack, the pot odds are lower because you're only getting 2:1 when a smaller bet would give more then that.

    Don't listen to this guys advice regarding pot odds.

    The only thing I see you did wrong was not fold preflop. Other then that you charged a premium for the draw and didn't pay it off when it hit. So post flop, nh.

  3. 728x890_us
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    Thanks for all the comments. To be honest I don't even know why i was in this hand when I could have afforded to pass on it, I think I was just having one of those moments during an MTT where I let the discipline slip, seen so many muck hands and just wanted to play something. J9o fitted the bill in that respect.

    Thanks to big slick in particular. I like my post-flop play, I figured she had missed. When she just called at this junction of the MTT I began to think she was perhaps on a draw. Of course Plan A was to get my opponent off the hand and pick up an uncontroversial pot... wanting to charge the maximum price for drawing out on me was only Plan B. Although it was a pretty obvious move I was still happy with the check behind her on the river, thus even if implied odds crossed my opponents mind on the turn they meant nothing once she hit and earned nothing more from my stack (as i think Boynamedsue correctly pointed out).

    I appreciate the enthusiasm cfortiz, thanks for the interest but correct pot odds was integral to this thread and for someone like slick who knows a bit about pot odds it was a bit of a laughable comment, try not to take offence. I liked your advice about being even more bullish if I put my opponent on a draw, perhaps pushing on the turn but I dont think I would have had the cajones to take that plunge. The thread however, was less about my cards and more about the showdown which got me thinking, was there any way (or bet) of taking this pot down early or was I doomed to lose money with a bullish play with J9o. My opponent did not have the correct odds to call, overbetting the pot would have only gave her worse odds unless it did leave me committed but lets face it, I am not getting committed with J9o.

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      CommentAuthorcfortiz79
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2007
     

    you limped in with j9o (bad play IMO), once you hit your top pair, I woulda checked or min bet and he woulda certainly called all the way but when he hits the card he would reraise and that gives you the info you need, avoiding you losing more chips.

    Your overbetting here gives the drawer pot odds because if he hits he will get paid off. And also this a $3 tourney so drawers will remain there no matter how much overbetting, even if you have had gone all in on the flop he woulda called in a blink of an eye.

    IMO don't limp in with junk hands.

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    Please research implied odds and the English language, then feel free to go ahead and fix your post. Right now, it is lacking.

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    My apologies for that I had some fairly large annoyances going on around me and I was already frustrated. It was misplaced. However, I really did start laughing when I read that.

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    Your first bet was too small if your intention was to push her off the pot.

    In my opinion, if you have the cards, and your convinced you do, hit it real hard and end the bleeding.

    If you aren't prepared to go all in with what you have, why place a bet which might entice her to put you there.

    When your leg hurts, you got no choice but to limp.

    -

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      CommentAuthorjesse6520
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2007
     

    number one id like to say to big slick that in some instances over betting does give implied odds especially if you are commiting yourself to the pot because if you make a small bet you can fold on the river to any bet but with the big bet sometimes you hve to push on the next street no matter what...now for the original question no ther ewas no way to push her off the draw if that didnt do it youy bet right, i actually cant believe you bet that much but iguess since it is a low buy in...

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    You gave a good enough definition of implied odds but then completely ignored it in your scenario. If your opponent goes all in on the turn how much more do expect to get out of them on the river? If it's more then zero then I'd be surprised. You have nothing implied on the river because there is nothing left.

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      CommentAuthorcfortiz79
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2007
     

    ok to answer your question...

    on the flop your bet was fine, on the turn you could have gone all in if you knew she was on draw, since 4th street gave you also a straight draw your all in could probably simobolize you've hit your straight and she could have folded (not likely though).

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      CommentAuthorcfortiz79
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2007
     

    Hey Big Slick, you don't have to laugh at people, aren't these forums suppose to be constructive to help improve your game? I am not an expert as to pot odds, implied odds, and the rest of s.hit, just was giving my opinion as to what I felt.

    Take care and no offense taken just try being polite to people you have never met, this will benefit all of us.

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      CommentAuthorGooseman18
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2007
     

    i agree w/ big slick. you could have folded pre-flop but because you decided to play it and ended up hitting top pair with good draw, i probably would have tried to play a small pot here. There's no need to try and make a stand with top pair and a weak kicker when the blinds are only 50/100. you still have plenty of chips as did your opponent which is why they called on the turn in the 1st place. In these low-stakes games it is almost impossible to get anyone off a draw so just try to keep the pot small and hope to not get drawn out on, but you probably shouldn't have been in the hand to begin with.

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    Fold preflop, you have less than 30 BB and not that great a hand, don't limp in this spot. Once you called, you played perfect on every other street. You bet enough that she didn't have odds to call on her draw, and didn't even bet when she hit. Bad luck, bad players hit their draws sometimes.

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      CommentAuthorkilrtunz
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007
     

    how do I log in to the canada 100 dollar freeroll

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    I don't really like her call, especially since she failed to earn any more chips after she hit her hand.

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    Thanks cfortiz. I am however aware that it was a loose call with the J9o, its a hand that is easily dominated and that crossed my mind throughout the hand. I'm also aware that it was merely a 3$ mtt and therefore it will very hard to push off a drawer.

    With the benefit of hindisight though we can see both of me and my opponents cards. My question was whether there was any bet that could have got this person off their hand that was clearly behind until the river. I wasnt asking whether calling in the J9o is a good move, I know that it is not a good starting hand.

    cheers

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      CommentAuthorquick98ta
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007
     

    I have to say it was a bad call on her part on the flop. You made the right play she was just trying to give her chips away and it didnt work out for her

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      CommentAuthorjesse6520
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2007
     

    okay, here is what i am saying... I am assuming that implied odds mean the amount of chips you think you can get on further streets. Now suppose youput opponent on an ace and the flop is A s, Ts, 2 d and you have 6d 7d and the 3 pot is 300 currently and you ropponent who has 1000 bets 300 in this case he has just basically committed himself to the hand and you can make the call on the flop because even if he goes all in on the turn you still have implied odds. You are 4 -1 to catch the flush on the turn and your implied odds are 300 + 300 + 700 to 300 which are good. on the other hand had he bet 150 I would fold because he is not commited and could easily fold his hand and therefore I do not have implied odds if I think that i will be facing a bet on the turn especialy if there is no diamond

1 to 18 of 18

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Overbetting the pot?