General Poker Discussion: Building a bankroll at low limits

Hi all. I was wondering if there are any players out there who have successfully used micro limit sit n go's and cash games to build up a very large bankroll to play at the higher limits. I mainly play $2.50 and $5 sng's, and was wondering if it is wise to use both cash games and sng's to build a bankroll, and if anyone here has done it as well?

Is it possible to play 5cent/10cent cash games online, coupled with $2.50, and $5 sng's to build up a nice sized bankroll to about $500-$1000?

If someone has acheived this using these micro-limits i have discussed above, i would like to know how they went about it, and if they have any tips they could share. Also, if they could inform me if they used both cash games and sng's.

Thanks guys.

I played for several years while working at a "normal" job in live games with friends and had played online only on play money tables. In 2001 I got laid off and began playing online while looking for work. Not having ANY funds to spare I started playing freerolls mainly to take my mind off of looking for work. I was also insecure about the veracity of poker sites and was determined NOT to put a penny in until I could be sure they were on the "up and up". I can't tell you how many family members told me it was a scam.

After about 4 or 5 days of freerolls I managed to finish high enough to win $3.65 total on a site called Noble poker. Not sure if they even exist anymore. But I chose that site because they were offering 50$ and $100 freerolls every few hours (ableit 10K entrants) and you didn't have to have ANY initial deposit to enter the freerolls. They also had 0.01/0.02 ring tables.

I took my initial $3.65 and literally scouted out my first table for hours. I was determined to do everything right. I found a 1/2 cent ring table that had a huge average preflop pot and a high percentage of players to the flop. If memory serves me, the average preflop pot was around 35 X the blinds. If you are unaware, this is VERY significant. Since this average preflop pot determines how many circles you can sit out prior to taking down a pot. If the preflop pot averages 35 X the blinds you can literally wait for 35 X 10 = 350 hands (10 handed game) and then just take down the preflop pot to break even. Of course AA (and KK, QQ for that matter) come around once every 221 hands.

Having worked for several days to get that initial $3.65 I wasn't gonna risk it on one hand or even one game. Stake management is a VITAL skill you must learn and it was especially important with funds that low. I brought the minimum of $1 to that table and waited and waited. Finally I got AA and limped in. Sure enough several raises later the pot was up to 30-40 times the blinds with 5 or 6 people in the pot. I reraised all in and held my breathe. I got 2 callers for almost 1$ each and I took down the pot. I immediately left the table so as not to risk what was now almost half my stake.

I know what some of you are thinking (and how hard you are laughing) but funds were that tight and I had to get a stake quick. I think I had about 4 weeks grocery money for my kids. I also fealt guilty, like I was gambling on my kids stomachs so I was bound and determined to not invest anything that might harm them. It was kind of like a fall back plan while I looked for work during the day. I then scouted out my next table, entered with 1$ and repeated for several days. After 1 week I managed to get my stake up to 125$ (quite and effort) starting with NOTHING and was able to stay in the ring games after an initial win.

At that point I started playing 1$ (and a few lower) buy-in tournaments. I specialize at tournament play. It took three more weeks of basically breaking even before I won my first 700$ first prize. I was proud of myself for having built to my first 1000$ starting with nothing. During the 2nd month I won two more tourneys for another 2700$.

I can still remember calling up Noble's support line to "timidly" ask if it was possible to withdraw money from the account. I was terrified that since I had never put money in that they wouldn't send me a check. I even made sure to explain to her that I had never put money in. She was very nice and said, "No problem. Other people put the money in and you earned it from them". I was on cloud nine when I received my first check. I made sure to thumb it in the noses of all those that told me it was a scam. It can't be a scam if they send you money and you have never deposited.

I averaged $2200 per month during the 9 months I was out of work and by cutting expenses was able to get my sons and I through it. I wasn't able to build much more of a stake since constantly withdrawing to pay for expenses took a toll. After finding work I did however continue to play when possible and was able to build up to a stake of over 11K on several different sites, learning to get bonus matching funds etc, and gaining experience along the way. All using the funds gained with that initial 3.65$ freeroll money. To this day I have never deposited anything but funds obtained from that initial account.

Last October the new laws were passed and all 5 sites that I played on at the time began refusing US players and returned the funds in my accounts. I assumed my safety net was gone forever and only played live games with friends until recently.

About 4 months ago a small company I was working for lost their main contract and I found myself unemployed again. To make matters worse I developed a pulminary embolism that meant bed rest and blood thinners (no insurance) for about 10 weeks. A friend of mine mentioned that US players could still play on PokerStars and Full Tilt. So lying there in bed I opened up an account on PokerStars and was back to doing Freerolls. Within my first 3 weeks I built up and won my first big Gaurantee and took in 5600$ on one tourney. I have since won several more and finished quite a few final tables. During the last 10 weeks I have earned more during bedrest than I made while working. I had to withdraw 14K$ from PS to cover some of my expenses, but I am confident that I can sustain and build my stake further. I have recently opened an account on Full Tilt and I am branching out on various sites.

So the short answer is "Yes. You can build a stake from the micro limits even starting with NOTHING". But the long answer is "Yes and no". By that I mean you better know what you are doing. You have to have an infinite amount of patience and possess MANY different skills. Only 1 in 20 actually make money period. So no deposit amount will allow them to make a profit and hence build a stake. The first thing you should do is make sure you understand the game well enough to make a profit. And don't just assume you understand it, be honest with yourself. Get experience in several different styles of play.

I play EXTREMELY tight as my normal game. But I have practiced aggressive and super aggressive styles as well. So when I am up against these types of players I understand what they are doing. If I can isolate them, I will often surprise the hell out of them with a well timed trap hand of my own, and a call or raise that they just don't expect from a tight player. I will often bust them for their whole stack.

You must also understand stake management. I can't stress this enough. I often find myself straying and losing discipline in this regard. Happens to everyone from time to time. Just make sure you catch it in time. One of the keys to stake management in my opinion can be summed up in one simple question. "Are you playing for fun and excitement, or are you playing to win money?" You must answer this question in a brutally honest fashion (and you cannot answer both).

I have a family member who would swear that he answers this question "for money". But it just isn't so. He ALWAYS wants to play for higher stakes. Higher than his stake can afford. He was thrilled to watch me play in some of my higher stakes tourneys and couldn't wait to do it himself. The idea of winning a bunch of money was irresistable. But in his viewpoint he wanted to play to win that bunch of money. However, he has no interest in watching me play when I am in a 1$ or 5$ buy-in tourney. According to him, his irresistable desire to play at a higher stake PROVES that he is playing for the money. It proves the opposite.

I get no more of a thrill winning 500X my buy-in at a 1$ tourney than I do at a 50$ tourney. Excite yourself with mastering the nuances of the game. Not with the level of risk you are willing to take. Play within your means and keep it under control. Not sure if this can be learned. It may be something you are born with. If you have a gambling addiction get help and stay the hell away from it. Remember only 1 in 20 make money. Only 1 in 20 have the patience or clear headedness or whatever it takes to show a profit.

This has been long winded enough. But I would like to leave you with a check list of sorts geared towards tournament play. Be honest when you look it over. This is by no means complete, but if you don't have these under control give it up.

KEEP RECORDS!!!!! You will not improve nearly quickly enough if you don't. Keep the recommended records and I advise to also have a comment section on your spreadsheet. Be honest in your comments. Did you conserve your chips or piddle them away so that when you doubled up you got back to even? Did you play tight or lose? Did you play your hands from correct position? Did you go on tilt? Or did you play well and just took a bad beat?

Stake Management!!!!! I was astounded when I read Chris Fergeson's write-up on his rules for stake management. He is in the process of proving it can be done starting from 0$ (I am proof it can be) and he has included his list of rules on this site. Read it. It is gold. I was amazed at how closely I had followed his rules without ever reading them.

Understand Pot Odds. Pot Odds are the rule in limit games. In No-Limit games Pot Odds mainly tell you when you MUST call.

Understand Implied Odds. Don't overestimate implied odds. If you make an implied odds call and hit your out but don't get the resulting pot needed to show a profit you should be honest and upset with your play, not happy with your play because you got lucky and now think you are slick.

Understand preflop odds. For example, are you of the impression that 22 (or 33-88 for that matter) are as good as AK? Do you fold low pairs or do you use them as an excuse to throw it all in (amature mistake). Do you fold weak Aces!!!!! Good lord I see alot of these hands played. Memorize odds for underpair versus overpair, pp versus 2 overcards, pp vs two undercards. pp vs under over, interlaced (e.g. T4 vs Q8), overs vs unders and embraced (e.g. AT vs JQ).

Understand the importance of position. Do you fold KQs and AJs from first position or can you just not bring yourself to do it? If you don't, chances are you are one of the 19 out of 20 who lose money.

Learn to read your opponents.

Learn to alter your play based on that read when appropriate. You can play a few more hands if you know you will be up against a weak and loose opponent. In fact you can often raise preflop to get the non-maniacs out to insure you are heads-up. Equally important is whether you tighten up against a tight early raiser.

DO YOU GO ON TILT (guilty as charged). If you do, take a break. Might help to look up the stats of the player that put the bad beat on you. 99 times out of 100 they are losing money at a rate Bill Gates couldn't sustain. Did you play the hand correctly? Did you give them the correct pot odds to call? Have you been paying off too much with second best hands giving him implied odds to call? Did you try to get cute and slow play only to get burned? Be honest with your assessment.

Do you understand the rake and entry fee. There is more to it than you think. With a 5% rake you are losing 10% of your winnings in a heads up pot since you are putting in half of the money in the pot. This is compounded if you and your opponent are exchanging pots back and forth. Therefore if you play 10% better than your opponents you will lose money or at best break even depending on how you play. With normal exchanges back and forth you can often play 20-30% better than your opponents and only break even (he will end up paying both or your rakes). It is not uncommon to find games played in such a way that NO ONE makes a profit. You are therefore strongly encouraged to win your money in a few big pots. In tournament play there is no rake but their is an entry fee. In tournament play you can exchange a few pots back and forth without penalty. But the same thing applies to tournaments as a whole. Only the entry fees for tourneys are often 10% not 5% (I even saw a 1$ tourney where the entry fee was 25 cents{can this be profitable for anyone?}). You therefore must finish at least 10% better than the average player to make a profit. At the lower stakes the play is so incredibly bad you might think it easier to do this. In some ways yes in others no. At this level there are so many players throwing in their chips with ragged hands that it often turns into a slot machine type situation. Lucky donkeys will take out many many good players before the fish are removed from the tourney. Luck tends to play a larger role in this case. This means that a higher percentage of the players finish near average and the curve flattens out. This can make your margin between entry fee and earnings tight.

Helpful calculations.

Odd for next card to hit your out: 2 X #outs

Odds for 1 of the next two cards: 4 X #outs - (#outs above 8)

ex (15 outs): 4 X 15 - (15 - 8) = 60 - 7 = 53%

Odds that 1 of several players still to act has a higher PP than you:

(# players) X (# higher pairs) / 2

ex (you have PP 6's and 5 players still to act):

5 X (14-6) / 2 = 20%

Hope that helps. If you have any questions at all feel free to ask anytime. If I can help I will.

In my opinion I don't think that you will suceed in the near future by building a bankroll by playing micro sng's/cash games. As the previous poster said, it will take too long to make any sort of decent profit and unless you are a patient person, this can get quite frustrating. If you want to deposit the minimum on FTP I suggest you play $5-$10 sit and goes, and 0.10/0.25 ring games. You should continue at these limits until your around $200, then you can up your limits to 0.25/0.50 and $10-$20 sngs. Of course there are people who say you should play $2-$5 sng's and micro limit cash games even if your bankroll if above $200, which I find ridiculous.

I started playing for money online in October last year in dribs and drabs, played more seriously in February this year and only recently decided to start maintaining and monitoring my bankroll about 2 months ago.

I was initially on another site, and started out playing 0.5/.10 but found it was near impossible to play at that level (just IMO) as people would literally call with any 2 cards, and a 5 x pre flop raise meant nothing to anyone - and more often than not 90% of the time you were involved in a 10 way flop which is ridiculous and your only real chance of winning was to have the nuts, or flop a fairly strong hand and bet it ridiculously big.

However, I did really well there and won absolute truckloads (mainly by playing solid tight Agressive ABC poker - and as lot of players at that level will cal you to the river, made quite a lot). And moved on to $0.25/0.5.

I again played at that level for a few months and had similar success to the previous level, although the profit margin was slightly smaller, and took the step up to 0.5/1, which I felt for a small stakes player was a decent setup, and where you could perhaps begin to slowly build a decent profit. Although it is low stakes, I've found the difference at that level a world apart from 0.10/0.25, and considerably tougher than 0.25/0.50 as although there are still "fish" and bad players, there are also a lot more good and disciplined players who can be harder to bluff, and arn;t afraid to put their money where their mouth is. I've learned so much more playing there on a number of levels - and have also found that it is only now that my bankroll has occasionally taken some big swinfgs due to bad plays/bad beats and bad runs/form.

After playing that level for 7 months, and occasionally dabbling in 1/2 (Where although I performed moderatly well, I did nowhere near as well at the lower level and didn't feel i was ready) my profit over that period has grown quite considerably - but one factor was the site I played on was quite weak - very loose with a lot of calling stations and players who played more for enjoyment than profit, and thus i have interpreted my playing style allowed me to cash in on this mentality. I won't go into it as its a debateable topic and not for this discussion, but I although I 100% do not believe online poker is rigged, I do believe this site had a flawed RNG for varous reasons and made the decesion to leave that site in search of a better poker experience, and a better challange, and after considering 2 or 3 other sites, ended up here.

Well, what an eye opener for me. I deposited $600 as my opening deposit, and went into the $0.50/$1 cash games (yes, realistically a bankroll that size is not enough for that level - this will be explained below) and played my normal game, bluffing/stealing/mixing it up, and a moderate tight aggressive stance.

In 3 hours I lost $450, almost my entire bankroll. My "moves" didnt work on here at all.....and it was now quite clear to me I was playing against smarter and better players, and although I believe i am a good competant player - this was now going to take more time.

Since losing that $450 on my opening day here coming up for a month ago, I took the remaining $150 back down to 0.25/0.5 - deciding that if I lost it all, I would deposit another $600 from my remaining winnings and be more disciplined.

Since adapting (to what I find) the more aggressive style on FTP, I've taken my remaining $150, and turned it into just over $1100 in the past 4 weeks. I feel im playing consistently well and have learned so much more in this period - as well as studying a lot more poker books, articles and literature. I also watch a lot more TV poker, and have learned a lot from studying the pros playing and the commentators analysis - most notably from the High Stakes Poker TV show and have found some consistent success putting these strategies and plays into my game.

My aim is to move back up to $0.5/1 where I will hopefully be able to gauge how far I have come, and play consistently at it. I must admit I do find 0.25/0.50 at present a bit of a grind, and I view it as a means to an end, a stepping stone to the next level. I'll continue at this level for at least another 2 months or so, where hopefully by that time I will have built a considerable bankroll for use at the next level (as well as cash in some of my profit so i can enjoy it.)

With regards to bankrolll management, I think its vital. When I started out, poker was new to me - until last October I didnt know anything about it whatsoever. After I moved from getting the basics at play money, i played 0.10/0.25, only depositing $25 at a time - it was just to see how I would get on, more for learning - as I wasnt worried whether I lost it or not. As my play began to get better and as I moved up i still stuck by this rule - it was more about targets: I still played this way even at 0.5/1 - with my means of thinking devoted to setting challanges to myself. I would start off with $200 (only enough for 2 buy ins!!) and as I was doing quite well and winning pretty much all the time, would set myself a target of say $600. When I reached the $600, I cashed out $400 and repeated the process, and raised my threshold amount over time.

Using this method, over a period of 6 months, although I alwats started off with a pitiful amount which only amounted to a couple of times the buy in and cahsed out out every time I reached around 4 times that initial amount, I turned that $200 into $3900, which I think is quite good for a beginner (who also had no bankroll management skills!). I 100% agree that doing this is suicide and definitly not adviseable - but I had a method behind my madness: I earn a decent wage from my real job, but also have a lot of things to pay for. I was scared I would end up losing too much on playing poker or become addicted and run up debt, and at the same time I really didnt have the patience for micro stakes. My thinking was if I lost the initial $200, that was okay - it was affordable - i can reload $200 and start again. If I lose that as well - time to take a break. i would stop playing for a few weeks until i got paid from my regular job and start the process again. By doing this, although i may at times have been losing money, it was an amount affordable to me to lose, whilst not hurtling myself into huge debt (and yes - playing with money you need for bills etc is not adviseable - I knew thats what i was doing and how bad it could be - thats why i played the way i did so I knew if I lost, it wouldnt screw me up financially.)

Having now moved here, this is my first attempt at "proper" bankroll management. I've cashed in $3300 of the above, keeping $600 of it for here. As I have already cashed in a decent amount of money, my aim is now to build this $600 high enough to both move up stakes and cash in a bit of it - and then once I move, do the same (except I wont be looking to move for a considerable amount of time).

Overall - thats my poker story as a beginner low stakes player over the last 9 months or so.

I dont really have much bankroll tips as such as I'm quite inexperienced in this area, but heres a few things I think about:

If your in a game and your losing - QUIT. Poker will still be around tomorrow. "Retreat now, and live to fight another day". This can also apply to when you are in a hand - you've had a strong hand and bet it well and your opponent has called you to the river. He immiediatly goes all in without hesitation, and there are minor straight and flush possibilities out there. Think about it properly - yes, its frustrating that in this big pot you've put in almost 50% of your stack, but lets say a flush or straight beats you - DONT be a pay offwizard. Accept in the end you are probably beat and fold. Use your remaining stack to break even and begin rebuilding. (Unless of course his betting pattern doesnt make sense, or you have a good read in which case you can also call).

If your winning, keep playing well. Don't start fannying about, you will just lose it all. Dont play too long either - if you have been well up and playing well for a lengthy period, call it a day and cash out. It only takes one all in for all that hard work to go to waste. I played a 6 hour session a few months ago and had won 5 times my buy in after 4 hours, yet kept playing. By the end of the 6 hours, I lost 75% of the money by becoming cocky and reckless.

If you are tilting, leave and take a break for a while, and think about why you are tilting, then try to resolve it.

Although not really related to bankroll management, I also think this is relevant in one way (I've fouind it is): Hand selection, position and over bluffing/calling can destroy you.

Dont keep limping in with duff hands in early position - if someone raises, you can't call! If you limp in 10 times with garbage, and get raised by someone in late position you risk losing a lot more by calling, or maybe getting top pair with a poor kicker when your opponent has an overpair or better. Thats also 10 blinds you have just lost for no reason. Also, think about what is going on: You have AJ suited in early position, and theres been either a huge raise later, or a raise and re-raise.......think about it! Kicker trouble used to cost me a lot.

Dont overbluff. It alright to semi bluff or value bluff - but when its obvious your bluff isnt going to work, or your opponent bets, and you bluff raise and he calls its maybe time to save face and give up.

If your oppoentn has bet on all 3 streets and you have called with top pair/2nd pair or a 2 pair etc and there are good possibilities of higher hands, THINK about what is going on.....dont just press "call" for the sake of it and because you like your hand. Ask yourself: "What has he been betting with this whole time, and has he made a better hand. Is he bluffing, or could this be a cooler?" Of course, there are times when you just have to call and pay them off....as I type this, i flopped a 10 high flush on a board of AQ6 diamonds. The hand went to the river with the turn and river being a 6 and 4 different suits. He went all in and I called....and he turned over 64 for a full house....I seriously put him on a full house of some sort, but then decided to call. Sometimes it happens, but sometimes you have to listen to your instincts and know you beat. (Like I should have, and I didnt )

Thats my tuppence worth and opinions/experiences there - apologies for the long post. Not sure if anyone can relate with them, but its just my story.

Steve

Thanks, that sounds good. I will ensure i have enough left over to last the current level.

I was wondering, which is the best cash game book out there for really low limits, such as the low limit online books?

I have supersystem2, but looking for a book, that deals with no limit holdem, but at lower limits.

Thanks

Good discussion here, just thought I'd add a comment about building up a bankroll from a freeroll win.

I got myself $5 of free money and tried playing the lowest limit, 6 handed cap game. I realise now this was the wrong choice, as even with the cap a single bad beat leaves you with a stack smaller than the cap, and in a 6 handed game you need to be looser than a 9 handed game.

I got another $5 a while later and headed straight for the $2 sit n go's. This was exactly the right choice I think, since $5 isn't going to get you anywhere but if you win $9 you at least have a fighting chance. After a few days of sit n go's I had about $25 and moved over to the micro limit cash games, and just played really tight. Its not an amazingly fun way to play poker, but the beauty of the micro limits is that you can still get paid off even if you only play group 1 and 2 hands. In this respect its quite like the low limit play money tables.

I've now got a small bankroll going, and the advice offered by everyone else takes over. I would also add that my personal fav way to raise more money is to play 3 or 4 micro limit tables at the same time, keep it tight, put on some good music and just grind it out. Fancy plays are worthless at these levels, its all about starting with the best hand.

Anyhow, best of luck to you all.

EDIT: Additional point, its worth getting practice at sit n go's by trying the 10000 (at least, preferably higher) play money games. At high enough levels people treat the play money like real money (especially in tournaments), so its good experience. Also, check out video's by Professor77 on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idLmb4fyFhM) for sit n go strategy.

it has been 1 week since i made a deposit of 50 bucks and im currently at 247. It was mostly .05/.10 3 dollar cap and some sngs, it is very possible and not too hard to build off of low limit tables.

Mathman's post is gold...I just want to add that I do think a mix of sit and go's and ring games is the way to go. You get good experience playing both, and it gives you a little variety at times. I started with $50 on FTP, and on my first night, I dropped down under $4. From that $4, I built a nice bankroll playing mostly ring games, and I was up to about $300 in a few months playing .10/.25. I then moved on to $10 sit and go's, and I grinded my way to about $750. I've since moved on to other sites (I'm a bonus whore), and I've been able to grind my way up to a roll of about $2,000 with minimal play above .25/.50 or $10 sit and go's.

I would say that, though I consider myself more of a tournament player, I probably made close to 75% of my roll through ring games. Though some will preach against this, I used to sit at .10/.25 or .25/.50 with about 40 BB, play tight, double up, then find a new table. It kept the risk factor low because I never had more than 50 BB in play at once, and since I don't consider myself a gambler, this was very nice.

I was able to do so playing a combination of many things. I mainly played NL and limit holdem cash games, but mixed in various Sngs, and even dabbled in Omaha and Stud cash games. I also play occasional MTT tournaments.

SngS and MTTs buy ins range from $1 to $26 (tokens)

Cash games include anything from 25/50 cent to 1/2 limit, and $10 to $50 NL buyins.

I was fortunate enough that i could initially deposit $500. I have been able to more than quadruple it in just a little under two years.

I think they keys were the following:

Discipline - you have to be patient, not step out of your limits, and not tilt. I had these issues when i first played online, but was able to overcome them and (luckily) break even during this time period. I had to learn the hard way before i could control myself.

Variety - To me, building a bankroll playing the same thing every day just gets boring, and it feels like a grind. I don't play poker to grind. I play to win, yes, but i also play for enjoyment and relaxation. Play a variety of things, including cash games, Sngs, and MTTs. Play different games too. that way when you are having a bad stretch and one thing, you can try and forget about it by playing something else.

Statistics - Record each session/tourny you play, and include wins/losses, hands played, game, etc. Keep track of everything you do. When you win at something and see it on paper, it feels good and gives you confidence. When you are losing, you become motivated to get into the positive. Be honest in your statistics, they can tell you a lot.

Bonus - Playing on a first time or redeposit bonus is very key (or rakeback). These are great roll builders. I would say 60% or maybe even a little more of my profits come from bonuses. Most above average players just barely beat the game, but getting that bonus money back increases your profits greatly. Even if you break even in the game, you are still winning with bonuses! Sure, bonuses are slowly earned at low limits, but an extra 10 or 20 bucks in your account every 4 or 5 days makes a big difference!

The point is to build a bankroll, not to live off winnings. If you start with $100 then $1500 is a huge ROI, and is much larger than any investment like stocks or real estate would provide.

If you're trying to live off winnings or if $1500 isn't a lot of money to you, then you're likely not playing low limits. The point is that using proper bankroll management, you won't go broke no matter what level you're playing at, and will be able to generate significant returns.

I deposited 50 bucks on UB about a year ago and have made about 5,000 total on mostly sit n go's. I don't like cash games and find it very easy tilt of hard earned money in a short amount of time. Lately I have been smashing the 10 and 20 dollar buy in omaha hi and omaha hi low sit n go's due to the fact very few people know the game that well. Find whatever fits u and stick with it. The post before this was somewhat funny to me, alot of players are so afraid to go broke that they play way below their bankroll and don't really have a shot at moving up quickly without a mtt miracle. Take some shots and don't act like your roll is make or break. gl

Hey, I've just signed to the site and am trying to do exactly what the thread title says. I'd just like to say thanks for all the advice written so far. Its all been duely noted, and hopefully will be impliamented. (Easier said than done).

I've been playing $2 +.25 sngs so far and have been relatively successful, except for yesterday's 7 bust outs in a row. Unbelievable bad beats. Back to winning ways today though Can anyone reccomend any good books focusing on low limit sngs?

Cheers,

Gareth

none of the moderators put me down you were the who started with me you say you want to talk about poker but how can you talk about poker when you dont play you are a low life bottom fedder traler park trash loser AND ITS STILL FIXED

this is all very good advice, i appreciate it. i have put myself on lately because of the good fortune i had earlier. i deposited 50 bucks and got it over 800 dollars in 3 days and cashed out(bought xmas presents). thought i was the greatest player of all time and went on to lose 300 dollars in this last week play lower limit ring games. im going to use this advice to hopefully turn things around

I started with $4 from one HORSE freeroll and one 500K fake chip tourneys. I have been playing .05/.10 and $1-$5 tourney's and sng's for 10 weeks and I now have $65. I got up to $115 and then had a bad week a couple weeks ago, but I recovered. I was down to $20. I also have played some .50/$1 stud, if you like that. I think its only going up from here. There is some pretty horrible play at the lower levels, but u just have to be real paitient and just wait for spots. You get lots of people all-in drawing dead. If you like stud and can be patient, play that people are always paying off big hand with one big pair or two small ones. You can always count on that in the lowest level stud, you just have to wait for the premium hands.

Tommorrow (Jul 23), starting at 14:30 EST, Pokerstars is offering a series of "National" $100 freerolls. Specified nations have different starting times. I don't know if this has been widely advertised, so the field may be of a reasonable size. Stars does not often offer pure cash prize freerolls, so this is a good opportunity for those building a bankroll. Stars freerolls are usually feeders into a weekly game.

Look in the private tab for these games. US plays at 18:00 and 21:00, and Canada at 19:30.

CheckRazeMudr, I don't want to offend you but I looked you up after reading your post about how you won all this money on Pokerstars and Tilt and decided to run you in Sharkscope. Your record is below. Of course, this is only your tourney play. I couldn't find your $5600 win where you quote "Within my first 3 weeks I built up and won my first big Gaurantee and took in 5600$ on one tourney."

Your record shows that your total profit for Full Tilt is negative $88. and for PokerStars it is positive $22.

Am I missing something here? Please tell me I am mistaken.

Here is a cut and paste of your record from sharkscope. It didn't want to paste right so if you have any doubts, go to sharkscope and run yourself.

Username/ Games Played/ Av. Profit / Av. Stake/ Av. ROI/ Total Profit/ Form/ Network/ Filter/

ChekRazeMudr/ 25/ -$3/ $5/ -70%/ -$88/ Tilt/ FullTilt/ x/

ChekRazeMudr/ 73/ $0/ $3/ 7%/ $22/ - PokerStars

Thanks, kb5zcr

Is there any other soild suggestions. ChekRazeMudr, I read your awe-inspiring story of how you built your bankroll. I just graduated from college and am having trouble finding work.

I love poker but am strapped for cash.

I am wondering if there are any other ways to go about managing a $10 - $12 bankroll playing NLHE. I just finished 2nd in a freeroll and I don't want to blow it foolishly. I feel I am a stronger SnG/Tourney player than ring game player.

Anyone else got a good story?Last edited by C_doubleup_C on Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total

ChekRazeMudr's stats at www.officialpokerrankings.com confirm what he says. There's a big $5k+ win in there. Sharkscope only reports SNGs not MTTs.

I have done it twice. I had FTP points built up from prior play and deposits. After I had withdrawn all my cash due to a run of bad luck, I played several of the 50 ftp point token tournaments. Won a few tokens that way. Used the tokens to enter 24+2 tournies and cashed in one to the tune of around 30 bucks. Parlayed that into $700 before I drew it out.

The second time I decided I was gloing to play the freerolls, since they increased them to $100 payout. Got a couple $2 payouts and then placed second in the razz freeroll and won $12. Took that to the 10+.50 razz hu sng and parlayed that into 300. Took that to the hold em ring games, starting at .10/.25. I am now playing .25/.50 hold em rings and have a bank roll of 1150. All this over a period of about 4 months. It is possible, but you have to get lucky intially. I won something like the first 15 razz hu sng's I played. I chose that game because most here don't understand it.

I think I am a good example of moving up from the lowest stakes.

I started playing about 2 years ago, (play money), at other sites. But decided to deposit about a year ago. I deposited the minimum at UB, which was 25$.

I started playing as I said the lowest stakes; .01 .02 NL., and some 1$sngs and MTT. In my first 2 months I finished a little under, like 22$ or something. But, all started to change, when I finished 6th at a MTT and earned 40.

I kept playing at the penny tables, and built my bankroll up to 300, when I decided to move up to the .05 .10 blinds. And that was a TERRIBLE mistake. I went up and started playing shorthanded all of a sudden, (in which u have play a lot looser), playing tight, I lost in just 2 days 75$. Man, that was devastating, all the hard work of 2 months starting to vanish.

I went down again, and took my money up to 350. It´s important to tell I got a couple of friends that play, and all of them teased me about playing the micro stakes with 350, but I learned my lesson, which I still apply. DON´t MOVE UP IF YOU CANT AFFORD TO LOSE (or think you can´t), and IF YOU MOVE UP, YOU HAVE TO KEEP PLAYING YOUR GAME, DONT LET THE STAKES INTIMIDATE YOU.

I started playing full ring, .05 .1, and moved my bankroll up to 525, really fast. So I thought I was prepared to play at the next blind levels.

I got my money to 900. I withdrew all of it and deposited 550 at FTP (took out the other 350), gaining advantage of their huge bonus.

At FTP I have been playing for 3 weeks, and finished 3rd last week at a 5.5 MTT, (255$) and I am currently still playing .1 .25. NL. I currently have at FTP 1018 and will be moving up soon. So my total wins are about 1350, 54x my initial deposit, which, for someone that plays about an hour a day, I think is pretty good.

I think to build yourself a bankroll you need:

1. First of all discipline. As I said, play what wont hurt your bankroll, and play at levels at which you can play your best game, not at those you wont feel comfortable bluffing, or making some tough calls, just because of the size of the bets.

2. By discipline, its not only moving up when you have enough money to do so. Its also, playing good poker, if you are tired take a break, if you just suffered a bad beat that got into your skin, leave the table, it DOES affect your play somehow. Dont call very weak hands preflop, just hoping to catch the table bully, etc. DISCIPLINE IS TO PLAY YOUR BEST GAME, TO PLAY WELL, if you start doing crazy moves, just leave the table.

(Ferguson has a great article about this stuff, and Howard Lederer also, check them out).

3. Like I once read, you cant achieve number 2, if you dont know how to play the game well. Read... I assure it gets your play better. Of all books I have read I recommend Harrington on Holdem Vol. 2, strongly, if you like MTTs. Slansky´s books are awesome and also some sites on the internet; twoplustwo.com, flopturnriver.com.

4. And last, people currently say this is a game of experience, but repeating it doesnt hurt anybody. Learn from every particular hand, see everything that happens at the table as part of your learning.

I'm certainly no Chris Ferguson, but just hit $1400 today. Had an up and down week. If you play good poker and practice good bankroll management, it can be done. I still think you have to be very lucky initially though.

Is 50 X max buy in not a bit overkill? You could surely have a stab at the next level with a BR that big?

I am quite inexperienced with BR myself, and i'm looking to get to a level of around 15 - 20 buy ins which I think i would do okay with. 50 seems quite high?

You could do just fine with 20 buy ins, however 50x is recommended because of the possible downswings. I've had downswings of over 12 buy ins more then once. I've recovered from each, but the first time I was playing with just your basic 20x BR and that left me with 8 buy ins ,which isn't enough to really play comfortably so I had to drop levels and rebuild which takes forever.

Even the best players have huge downswings. Sbrugby had a 30x buy in downswing earlier this year.

Notice I did say that 20x is good for taking shots at the next level. You can have 50x and play your level comfortably while taking a shot every now and then at higher levels.

ive been able to turn $300 into $1700 in only four or so hours by playing $100 heads up SNGs and after winning two or three of those, going into a $2 $4 cash game.

Unfortunantly, i havent been able to hold onto any of my winnings because after my initial HUGE wins, i continue to play for too long and eventually, lose everything. Thus, to make $, i would advise in going all out and taking some risks but once you make it, log off and save it for another day. Dont play exhausted and dont go on tilt if you lose lets say, only 10 % of your stack. Ive lost way too much after making a ton way to many times.